128 design, costs, etc.

[adric22]

I know it is all way in the past and everything.  I had a 128D from the time I was 11 to around 14 years old.  I learned to program in assembly and do lots of stuff on my setup.  I never, ever used CP/M mode.  I would boot to CP/M on occasion and fiddle around, but I had no CP/M software to use, nor did I know anyone who had any CP/M software or computers.  All of my friends had C64's.   I had a fascination with the 80 column VDC chip.  I learned all of its registers and I wrote a software program to display a Doodle picture on the 80-column screen, which i think I was the first to do that.  

Essentially I had 3 programs that used 128 mode.  GEOS128, which I only used GeoWrite to do my school papers.  And I had Desterm which i used to call BBSs, but mostly IBM based BBS systems with ANSI graphics.  And lastly, Ultima 5.   Everything else ran in 64 mode.  I essentially had a C64 that could run 3 other programs.

In retrospect, as much as I liked my machine, I think it was a bad design idea.  I wonder how much more successfull it would have been had Commodore decided not to include the Z80 CPU (hence, not bother with CP/M) and not to have included the seperate 80-column chip.  Instead, had they spent that money towards a new VIC-III chip that could have done 80-columns and had a composite output and an analog RGB similar to the Amiga.  Then, dispense with the "64 mode" and have it run all C64 programs in native mode.  Only those programs that wanted to use the extra memory and the extra video features would call them if needed.   I think this approach would have had the unit cost about the same money, but would have landed far more development support.  80 columns would have been available to everyone (only might be fuzzy on composite) and would encourage more people to buy a 1084 monitor (for the RGB input) since there would be more software to use for it.  

We all realize that developers didn't bother to write a seperate 128 version, and making 64 software that could use the extra 128 features was difficult.  So had it been made in the way I'm saying, I believe more software would have run on both a 64 and 128 but using extra features on the 128.  And even more 128-specific software would have been written.  Probably to the point that the C64 would have had lower sales figures because of such high 128 adoption.  

Yes.. I realize this setup might have caused compatibility problems with a small number of C64 games, but I'm sure those games would have gotten patched eventually.

Anyway.. that is my 2 cents.

[Golan Klinger]

I wonder how much more successfull it would have been had Commodore decided not to include the Z80 CPU (hence, not bother with CP/M) and not to have included the seperate 80-column chip.  Instead, had they spent that money towards a new VIC-III chip that could have done 80-columns and had a composite output and an analog RGB similar to the Amiga.  Then, dispense with the "64 mode" and have it run all C64 programs in native mode.

I have often thought about stuff like this and I could not agree with you more. I think the 128 would have been far more successful, a true successor to the 64, had Commodore not tried to make it be all things to all people. As Commodore felt CP/M was so important they could have come up with some kind of external peripheral that included a Z80 along with the necessary software. Sort of like the Amiga Sidecar provided MS-DOS compatibility for the Amiga 1000. Those who needed it would have paid a premium and the money saved on the base machine could have resulted in a less expensive 128 (one more likely to appeal to cost conscious 64 users). Of course, the Sidecar, much like CP/M mode, was largely ignored. Come to think of it, CP/M's death was already a forgone conclusion so Commodore would have been far better off to have developed DOS compatibility.

A new and compatible VIC with high resolution and a greater pallette, dual SID chips (stereo) and double the RAM was all that was necessary to guarantee a huge hit. Commodore could have pushed the 1571 and 1581 drives, offered a higher quality monitor and developed a state-of-the-art 2400 baud modem in the same form factor as the 1670. Such a system would have been a perfect bridge to the Amiga and probably kept the 64 users in the Commodore family. Having millions of 64 owners 'upgrade' to the PC compatibles and Macs was the beginning of the end for Commodore.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

[OzOne]

In retrospect, as much as I liked my machine, I think it was a bad design idea.  I wonder how much more successfull it would have been had Commodore decided not to include the Z80 CPU (hence, not bother with CP/M) and not to have included the seperate 80-column chip.  Instead, had they spent that money towards a new VIC-III chip that could have done 80-columns and had a composite output and an analog RGB similar to the Amiga.  Then, dispense with the "64 mode" and have it run all C64 programs in native mode.  Only those programs that wanted to use the extra memory and the extra video features would call them if needed.   I think this approach would have had the unit cost about the same money, but would have landed far more development support.  80 columns would have been available to everyone (only might be fuzzy on composite) and would encourage more people to buy a 1084 monitor (for the RGB input) since there would be more software to use for it.

I really can't agree with this. Such a design would (I think) have resulted in even less sales of the 128. With a super 64 mode like you propose, there'd be even less reason to dvelop native software for such a beast.

Oz

[RobertB]

In retrospect, as much as I liked my machine, I think it was a bad design idea.  I wonder how much more successfull it would have been had Commodore decided not to include the Z80 CPU (hence, not bother with CP/M) and not to have included the seperate 80-column chip.  Instead, had they spent that money towards a new VIC-III chip that could have done 80-columns and had a composite output and an analog RGB similar to the Amiga.  Then, dispense with the "64 mode" and have it run all C64 programs in native mode.

After reading the On the Edge book and watching the Herd/Haynie/Russell videos of 2005 and 2006, I would never try to second-guess the designers.

Join us at the FCUG table at
the Vintage Computer Festival 9.0
Nov. 4-5,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[kernal34]

I think they did a fantastic job with the 128. I think the only reason that it didn't do as well, was marketing. And the marketing was held back because of the Amiga.

Other than that, the 128 was and still is the most advanced 8-bit computer ever built. On top of that, it had backwards compatibility very close to 100%, it had the more advanced features of the 128 mode, and had CP/M for the business users. There was vast amounts of CP/M software at the time. No one could have perdicted at that time, that Microsoft would have been guilty of genicide and placed themselves in the position they have.