True. Just used it ^^
Thx for bringing the site up again!

heya!

just a very short question:

what is the clock speed of the plus/4?

some sources say 1,10 MHz, some say 1,79 MHz, some say the higher MHz (1,79) must be enabled via a programming trick?
so what's true then?  and how "hard" is it to do a programming trick to get the 1,79 MHz steadily running

thx!
maq

Quote from: Korodny on January 24, 2011, 11:44 AM
I'm not sure it's actually "enhanced or utilizing". Some US based publishers made their C64 games bootable on a C128: the C128 would boot a simple loader from disk, which would then switch to C64 mode and run the game. They are not C128 games at all, but a lot of people keep mentioning them as if they were. Wizardry I from Gamebase64 boots on VICE 128 (the others just crash, IIRC), but at I can't see any improvements.

It IS! It does NOT switch to C64 mode, it boots completely in C128 mode and utilizes more RAM -> disk access during gameplay reduced. And of course the 1570/1571 burst mode is used.

Quote from: Korodny on January 24, 2011, 11:44 AM
This is simply the original (Apple II) release date, the Commodore versions were released a lot later. ...

Yes the Commodore release (C64 & C128) is from 1987. My fault.

Quote from: RobertB on January 21, 2011, 02:59 AMHmm, I don't see there the Basic 128 compiler that I sent him some time ago. 

What about that: c128basiccompiler.d64 ??
I use this (V1.03) for my BASIC V7 sources. Works quite good.

Found a C128 successor of the very popular Hypra-ASS for the C64.

Now that's my cup of tea, I will use this to get going.

The Software came along with a (german only) book ISBN-13: 978-3890904160. Got a .pdf of that here. The book is ordered.
But I think Hypra-ASS was not only popular in Germany, the commands used in Top-ASS are very similar to its predecessor, if not the same (just instead "/" for direct mode is swapped with a "." period).

Didn't find a summary or reference in english for it (or Hypra-ASS C64) though, yet.

Top-ASS plus C128 can be obtained here on the local "Downloads" section, thanks to Blacklord!

It supports auto-formatting on input, VDC 80 col. mode, custom macro definitions, case switch, if, then, else, basic integration and a ReASS.

Happy regards
maq

Alright, now as we've said each other our opinions, think about them and get a bit more known each other, I think/hope we'd now can go on more friendly (incl. me).

EDIT: addendum: The C128 itself is a bigger secret than the popular C64. So we'd all share the "secrets" of this great machine IMHO to interested people. And maybe catch them to get interested.
I also don't like lazy guys who don't want to think. But I handle (as said) it a bit other.
For me it's all tons of information noone can sort out in couple of days/weeks/months. I think one can and should recognize and differ real interested (but with slow in the uptake) from lazy ones.

EOT

Quote from: bacon on January 19, 2011, 09:54 PM
Wrong. You can't know whether the answer takes two minutes or half an hour.

Wrong. The answer if a program gives a formatted output is below 2 minutes for an experienced user of that program. Don't take ppl for a fool!

Quote from: bacon on January 19, 2011, 09:54 PM
Show me that you're willing to put in some effort yourself and I will gladly help you.

You don't know what effort I spent. I don't ask because of lazyness, but because I don't understand things. If you'd know me or read my other posts, you'd better know what kind of user I am.

And that's my last point to you. I think I don't need your "Now go read." or your book tips and RTFM shouts, everyone could give.
I don't care about my "puts you under a light".  Look at YOUR "light" i.e. Reputation and maybe at Hydrophilic's ...
says all...

Overall:

A short snappy answer by a well knowledged experienced user is no silver plate for me. But if your argues all go in that kind of direction, better think about your social skills and intentions and keep your secrets for yourself. I'm done with this and that kind of ppl.

I am happy to help, if I can and have the time and think it's worth it. If not, I don't post. I don't have to tell ppl what a silver plate is or how they'd use google or manuals. That gives me nothing.

EDIT: I hope it gets on topicn again, otherwise I want to have it closed then later (and "chitchat" deleted).

@bacon:

to say it directly, i don't like such answers. what's more time waste? reading and testing the manuals and software to find out after hours (did that recently with merlin128) it does not fit some unique k.o.-points? or asking experienced users, who use it for long time, and can answer in 2 minutes? (that's what forums are for.)
nvtl. i dug into the manual some days ago. the "ebud" won't work here for some reason...
EDIT: to answer your "EDIT", i already (Reply #9 on: July 16, 2010, 10:03 PM ») figured the basic part out.

Quote from: Hydrophilic on January 19, 2011, 05:57 PM
I haven't used an assembler on a C128 in years, but I guess Buddy would be my preference.  Can't really answer your questions about it because I do most ASM developement on a PC with a compiler called Xa by André Fachat (can work on Unix, Windows, Mac, etc.) 

When I need to test something on a real C128, I use MONITOR.  I love it... 1 second boot time!  Beat that iPod, Windows, Mac, Amiga, CP/M, Unix, DOS, PSX, XBox, PS2, XBox 360, PS3, blah, blah, blah... suckers! 

thx for the info, unfortunately (if i don't get any turbo-ass 128 diskversion to work) i also will "move" my work to a PC development system. i think i will use kickassembler, acme and relaunch64. maybe i'd give 64tass for ms-dos a try along with 64hdd to test the stuff quickly on the real machine. i hate emulators.

for interested "newbies" i've investigated the following (recent resp. recommended versions):

compilers:
kickassembler v3.14
acme090

editors:
notepad, very nice customizable and integrateable textpad or even better:
relaunch64 2.0 + code samples + relaunch64 latest v2.1b (german/english beta update)

"german" setup instruction (can also be informative for english users) for relaunch + acme is here

can Buddy Assembler do formatted listing, or even auto format on input? like many many other "basic editor" macro assemblers? f.e. hypra-ass

merlin128 and its weird editor functions is not quite right my taste :S

any alternatives to merlin/buddy? turbo-ass diskversion? (i know there's a rom, but don't have an eprommer)

BTW some impressions so far

well 6.000.... at 20.000 "spare" per frame (50 fps) in PAL, 78.600 at 12,5fps. i should drop the project.
or reduce the screen to 256x200 screen and using multicolor 128x200... but well if i use multicolor or hires two bits is same for me...
i will see, writing some routines at first and "benchmark" that all... maybe i get some another ideas.

what about precalculated tiles? but sorting this out might take longer to calculate a tile manually, i first have to get into the technic of line drawing... (just loud thinking)

unfortunately I'm currently not using exbasic level 2 and maybe later toolbasic. i will do a tokenlist as i need them and no other does, i even don't know the source yet and how that's all handled in detail.
as you seem to be more deep into this stuff, you'll have to do it for yourself if you urgently want or need it and make ppl happy with it :-) with my suggestions it shouldn't be a problem. further questions, you're welcome
from me there'll be no tables or whatever needed for petcat as long as i don't use it in my projects.

EDIT:
BTW: it didn't come in my mind so fast... i also wanted to mention

Quote from: Hershey on January 16, 2011, 10:43 AM
Try out this windows program Works with all cbm basics
http://www.stojalowski.de/files/BasEdit.net.zip
Edit Commodore Basic files on the PC with syntax highlighting and support of the full PETSCII character set

can also save files as pc text file

this is a really good thing and tip, as i know the author and helped to improve it (along with others). the tokens in his proggy are really easy to (that's what i've meant with an "ease") update/change via a simple .txt-like file. w/o recompiling any source or so...

good information so far, but i miss (as said) simon's basic and f.e. exbasic level II. point is: there are many different and maybe not so popular basic extensions..
and well, they're all differently tokenized. i'm aware of that, BUT! as said before the "print command" to LIST on a printer does print it out all exactly as a LIST would do.

this and vice versa would be comfy (if possible)


EDIT: i'm also aware of tokens are declared individually. but... it should be "an ease" to make a table what token byte data is what PLAIN TEXT command and vice versa

what about simon's basic and other basic expansions??

i mean at least printing them out on a PC. that's like OPEN4,4:CMD4:LIST
i dunno if the .prg file does the same, i doubt it does not!

i'd appreciate a detailed "how to use" report from you
loooking for something similar for BASIC 7 and also other various basic expansions like simon's basic...
because new tokens used there are not printable via petscii (or whatever it's called)...

further how to convert the stuff back?! i consider reading the commodore programs,  process them, maybe renumber them AND merge them with 6-7 other files parts (together with renumbering) and want to write it back to commodore format, whatever basic, expansion, etc. it is...

hello hydrophilic!

many thanks for the detailed and constructive information. really appreciated. it now rings a bell again, 63x312 = 19656 for PAL x50 = 982.800... etc.

well, the vic-ii e speedup is roughly 30% overall (it's said so). i guess because of some $D030 switching and invisible rasterlines after and before possible blank in 2MHz make in overall 30%. but that i'd see as a reserve. but that's not a problem (yet).

good point you make about the framerate AND the concept you used. i can deduce, that my project i have in mind is not completely lost or senseless

my calculations are in basic yet, just to get a decent fast overview, what perspective i should choose and what all has to be (pre)calculated.
and that's my answer: it will all stay 2D, (pseudo-3D effect), no Z-calculation. the angles etc. i want to precalculate with some kind of a factor for the precalculated angle function value tables to stay in RAM as integer values (if possible). so there shouldn't be much complex calculations anymore, "just" line-drawing and pageflipping and other stuff (sprite movement, sound, score, AI, collision detection).

i will later write some "naked" line drawing routines in ASM to evaluate the cycles "eaten" by each. to estimate the cycles i would have till next frame display refresh. roughly i guess for a 300 pixel line in angle of 30° will need 1000 cycles in total. 90°, 180°, 45° could be much more speed. but that won't happen that often, unless i plan to build objects that way a bit. plus 6-8 sprites x 42 each + movement and checks dunno (20-30 each) will make a total of ~ 600-800 cycles cut each frame.
i'm going to write parts of the program and then draw cycles needed timelines in a bar graph diagram to have it visually and more "moveable" in mind, what's possible, and what's not.

the VDC comes in mind if using charset block gfx. which i might do as alternative (with custom charset), but maybe in another project. (if this fails and IF VDC would be fast enough, which i doubt...)

i did some screenshots of my early just testing purposes. i might add them if wanted.

regards so far
maq

hello C128 fellas and coding enthusiasts

for a game, vector racing idea like on vectrex, i just want to know how YOU experienced coders estimate the speed of polygon display on the VIC.
i consider about drawing 60-90 hires singlecolor lines per frame (if that's enough and possible?), including pageflipping, player and "enemies" should be sprites.
and how many cycles do i have per frame to calculate? 283 rasterlines on PAL = cycles??! is that right?
got a concept for the "problem" in basic yet, just to get into 3D and "vectorization". the angles and stuff, anchors of objects could be precalced and stored as values in RAM.

thx'n'regards
maq

Ok, kinda done. But for you other interested cRPG fans:

Well I found out, that f.e. the ATC version of 1 work on C128. I'm testing with Wizardry 2, my drive doesn't like the disk yet.

HowTo? Just boot them up in C128 mode 

As you can read it everywhere there should be a Wizardry 1 (2, 3, 5) version enhanced or at least utilizing the C128? But I can't find any (yet)?!

If someone knows more about it than the usual forum, outdated other forums and google dead links stuff, please let me know!

I know 1982 release, the C128 wasn't released (nor planned). Even a patch or user enhanced version with a decent fastloader for C64/C128 would be very appreciated!!


Thx!
maq

There is in the C128 manual. I'll lookup the link for ya

Don't find the usual one used here. But this does same: http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/128_system_guide/app-j.htm


EDIT: Uhm... I've seen this is in the CBM  area, then my link might be wrong, I'm sorry... but maybe it's similar.

so what is it now?

very nice! thx man! will come in handy for all coders here

*applaud*

very nice, now it's complete, manual, bugfixed version and all.

thx to lokalhorst

as soon as i get time and on CP/M again i will try it.

10pm now...
logoff....


regards
marquisor

Are there special GEOS development kits available?

hello again!

now i tried merlin 128 for short, and buddy assembler with the manual (thx to a forum member) 

i think i'll stay with buddy assembler, as it is similar to hypra-ass on c64. at least this: gets loaded, residents in memory and can be interpreted along with BASIC 7.0/2.0.
merlin 128 has an editor, so it's pure ASM i guess?

ok, now buddy related:

just wanted to ask if i get it right, that makro assembler AND basic 7.0 code can be mixed and executed.
1) but how do i get the adresses i will have to SYS to?
2) can i "compile" the whole stuff (BASIC and ASM) together to one file? or do i have to save and then BLOAD it in my BASIC code?

just curious... as i'm still a bit confused by the whole books to read (memory mapping, buddy asm etc.)

thx!

EDIT: solved, read below. (marquisor: Jan-18, 2011)