I just noticed 'BASIC 7.1' in the BASIC token lists put up by the WinVICE team here:
http://www.viceteam.org/plain/cbm_basic_tokens.txt
What the heck is BASIC 7.1? I'd never heard of it before.
It seems to be a BASIC extension with the following keywords added. But where did it come from?
fe27 cwind
fe28 sscrn
fe29 lscrn
fe2a hide
fe2b show
fe2c sfont
fe2d lfont
fe2e view
fe2f fcopy
fe30 esave
fe31 send
fe32 check
fe33 esc
fe34 old
fe35 find
fe36 dump
fe37 merge
I'm bumping this topic because I didn't get a response and I'm still curious. Does anyone know what this is?
Earlier it didn't click for me, but wasn't that a magazine type-in? Can't recall which publication, but I'm pretty sure I had that extension and used it for a little while before my 128 went to 8-bit heaven. I think I mainly employed the text windowing stuff (the first few commands), merge and find.
I just stumbled across a bit more information here:
http://www.softwolves.pp.se/cbm/skapelser/bastext-man
This site discusses Peter Karlsson's 'bastext' program which converts Commodore BASIC to text.
It mentions the "Commodore 128 BASIC 7.1 extension by Rick Simon". So at least now we know who wrote it. :)
You know, over the years there have been dozens of BASIC extensions like this, via magazines or wherever. (Simons Basic cart, etc). I just have to wonder though, other than BASIC 8, did anyone *really* use these extensions for real development? Me personally, I would not want my code dependent on an external cartridge, although ML wedge extensions could be included on disk. Back in the day, I wrote a decent terminal (wish I could find it...it would be cool to see my old source code after 25 years), but it was all BASIC (compiled with one of the compilers out there) - no extensions or anything, although some "borrowed" code from RUN or Compute!s Gazzette here and there.
I used Simons Basic a lot on the 64. Basic 8 I've never really touched.
Quote from: Blacklord on October 09, 2008, 04:15 PMI used Simons Basic a lot on the 64.
There is TSB, the corrected and enhanced Simons Basic, available at Arndt Dettke's website. Go to http://www.godot64.de/german/downloads.htm (and the webpage is written in English).
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Quote from: xlar54 on October 09, 2008, 03:15 PM
I just have to wonder though, other than BASIC 8, did anyone *really* use these extensions for real development?
If by "real" you mean commercial, I can't imagine anyone did. I was never had any interest in the BASIC add-ons until November of 1985. That month's issue of Compute!'s Gazette had an ad on the back for a BASIC enhancer called "S'More" and even though I rarely used BASIC anymore, I was intrigued. I was particularly curious about their claim that the S'More allowed for "Full up/down scrolling through program listings". I had to have one and I got my chance at the World of Commodore show a few weeks later. I never used it to its full potential but I had fun messing around with over the Christmas holiday and truth be told, I doubt I would have had as much fun if I had spent the money on a game.
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 10, 2008, 12:42 AMI doubt I would have had as much fun if I had spent the money on a game.
That's always my justification. I always have more fun with languages, utilities, and tools than I do with games. That's really what got me the job at INFO, as Benn just wanted to play with games and graphics software. I got to review languages, disk copiers, and all the other fun stuff.
I remember S'MORE as being quite good, much better than Simons' BASIC, which suffered from having been written by a precocious young teen. (Thanks for the link to the 'improved' version, BTW; I'll give it a look.)
I recently pulled my BASIC 8 internal ROM and replaced it with the Servant, then just a couple of days ago pulled that and plugged in KeyDOS. They're all fun, but as usual none of them seems to have everything I'd like to have, arranged the way I'd like it to be.
Quote from: airship on October 10, 2008, 01:37 AMI recently pulled my BASIC 8 internal ROM and replaced it with the Servant, then just a couple of days ago pulled that and plugged in KeyDOS. They're all fun, but as usual none of them seems to have everything I'd like to have, arranged the way I'd like it to be.
I know what you mean... But I figure that having both Servant and KeyDOS installed together is about as close as I'll get. ;)
... I still haven't tried out installing a GEOS128 ROM ... one day! :)
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on October 10, 2008, 08:14 AMBut I figure that having both Servant and KeyDOS installed together is about as close as I'll get. ;)
... I still haven't tried out installing a GEOS128 ROM ... one day! :)
If only there were an adapter to hold 3 roms, like the triple Kickstart adapter for the Amiga 500/2000...
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Quote from: RobertB on October 10, 2008, 01:25 PM
If only there were an adapter to hold 3 roms, like the triple Kickstart adapter for the Amiga 500/2000...
An adaptor is as unnecessary for multiple versions of Kickstart as it is for multiple kernal or function ROMs in the 128. Take a look at this:
(http://www.postimage.org/aV_4Tri.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV_4Tri)
That's a an EPROM that contains Kickstart 1.3, 2.04 and 3.1 with a three-position switch. Cost was < $10 and time to make was ~ 1 minute. People seem obsessed with doing things the hard/costly way.
Quote from: me on October 10, 2008, 01:25 PM
If only there were an adapter to hold 3 roms, like the triple Kickstart adapter for the Amiga 500/2000...
Like I said, the triple Kickstart adapter would hold 3 roms; I myself have the dual Kickstart adapter with OS 1.3 and 3.1 in one of my A500's. Now if there were a triple adapter for the C128, then you could put in KeyDOS, the Servant, Basic 8, or any combination of three onto that board and switch among them.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
I believe what Golan is saying is that his setup uses a small adapter board and a single EPROM with enough capacity to hold three different versions of the Kickstart code, each of which can be selected by a switch which enables the appropriate memory block.
It's the same setup used to make a switchable JiffyDOS Kernal for the C64/C128.
It could also be used for what we're talking about - a switchable application ROM for the Expansion ROM socket inside the C128.
Quote from: airship on October 11, 2008, 06:02 AM
I believe what Golan is saying is that his setup uses a small adapter board and a single EPROM with enough capacity to hold three different versions of the Kickstart code, each of which can be selected by a switch which enables the appropriate memory block.
I'm using the Kickstart adapter board as an example; I'm not really talking about Kickstart.
Quote from: airship on October 11, 2008, 06:02 AM...a switchable application ROM for the Expansion ROM socket inside the C128.
I know of no one who has even tried to squeeze 3 separate apps onto one ROM for the expansion socket. If someone can do it, then great!
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Quote from: airship on October 11, 2008, 06:02 AM
I believe what Golan is saying is that his setup uses a small adapter board and a single EPROM with enough capacity to hold three different versions of the Kickstart code, each of which can be selected by a switch which enables the appropriate memory block.
Almost. My point is that no adaptor board is necessary because multiple EPROMs aren't necessary. Buying a multi-Kickstart board for an Amiga is a waste of money. As for a 128, the principle is the same. There's no need for an adaptor board as you've already got a 28 pin socket. You DO need a little adaptor (no logic) for multiple kernals because you're dealing with a 24 pin socket. The only reason I posted a picture of the multi-Kickstart EPROM is because my 128 is currently in the closet while I'm reorganizing and I was too lazy/busy to dig it out and open it up to take a picture and since it would look almost identical, I didn't see the point.
QuoteIt could also be used for what we're talking about - a switchable application ROM for the Expansion ROM socket inside the C128.
That's right. Burning a single EPROM with multiple function ROMs and soldering on a switch is trivial and I know of several people who have 128s with EPROMs holding multiple function ROMs. The only problem with having 8 kernals and 16 function ROMs in your 128 is remembering which switch settings selects what. :)
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 11, 2008, 05:28 AM
Quote from: RobertB on October 10, 2008, 01:25 PM
If only there were an adapter to hold 3 roms, like the triple Kickstart adapter for the Amiga 500/2000...
An adaptor is as unnecessary for multiple versions of Kickstart as it is for multiple kernal or function ROMs in the 128. Take a look at this:
(http://www.postimage.org/aV_4Tri.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV_4Tri)
That's a an EPROM that contains Kickstart 1.3, 2.04 and 3.1 with a three-position switch. Cost was < $10 and time to make was ~ 1 minute. People seem obsessed with doing things the hard/costly way.
Did you factor in the time to burn the eprom, or the cost of the EPROM and programmer?
The advantage of an adapter board with individual sockets is the flexibility to install any combination of ROMs you choose. If you have the ROMs already, a simple adapter board is the easy way. Not everyone has the skills, time, or hardware for burning their own...
If you can do it, then great, but there's always going to be a demand for those "plug and play" solutions.
Steve
Quote from: Steve Gray on October 12, 2008, 12:09 AM
Did you factor in the time to burn the eprom, or the cost of the EPROM and programmer?
Did you factor in the time to create the multiple function ROM board that doesn't exist? I was presenting a way to have multiple function ROMs in a 128 that doesn't require hardware that doesn't exist and since the cost/time of creating the EPROM must be factored in either way, it's a bit of a red herring.
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 11, 2008, 08:53 AMBurning a single EPROM with multiple function ROMs and soldering on a switch is trivial and I know of several people who have 128s with EPROMs holding multiple function ROMs.
Who are these people who have these C128 eproms with multiple functions? We need to ask them questions.
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 11, 2008, 08:53 AMThe only problem with having 8 kernals and 16 function ROMs in your 128 is remembering which switch settings selects what. :)
What are the various, many applications that fit the multi-function eprom for the empty socket of the C128? To my knowledge, only GEOS 128 v2 and Basic 8 can be squeezed into one eprom.
Details,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
CommVEx v5 info - http://www.commodore.ca/forum and click on ComVEX
Quote from: RobertB on October 14, 2008, 11:23 AM
Who are these people who have these C128 eproms with multiple functions?
Come to World of Commodore and I'll introduce you to a few. I can guarantee you that at least one 128 with multiple function ROM images burned to a single EPROM with a switch will be there because I'm going to bring it.
QuoteWe need to ask them questions.
Feel free to post any questions "we" might have. :rolleyes:
QuoteWhat are the various, many applications that fit the multi-function eprom for the empty socket of the C128?
I don't understand your question. Are you asking for a list of the various options for the function ROM socket? ???
QuoteTo my knowledge, only GEOS 128 v2 and Basic 8 can be squeezed into one eprom.
Evidently there are gaps in your knowledge.
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 14, 2008, 04:59 PM
I can guarantee you that at least one 128 with multiple function ROM images burned to a single EPROM with a switch will be there because I'm going to bring it.
Again what are these images?
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 14, 2008, 04:59 PMEvidently there are gaps in your knowledge.
Evidently you are not being forthright.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Quote from: RobertB on October 15, 2008, 02:23 AM
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 14, 2008, 04:59 PM
I can guarantee you that at least one 128 with multiple function ROM images burned to a single EPROM with a switch will be there because I'm going to bring it.
Again what are these images?
You've already mentioned GEOS and BASIC 8. Apart from those, KEYDOS and The Servant come to mind; I'm sure there are others.
Any C128 cart should work, not that there were a lot of them. Betterworking Turbo Load'n'Save, Mach128, and WarpSpeed come to mind, but of course any pushbutton-related functions wouldn't work without addition of the extra hardware. There's also the C128 diagnostic cartridge; granted, it doesn't do much without the accompanying harness, but if you had that, then you could burn it as one of the ROM images and always just be a switch throw away from running diagnostics. I wouldn't mind having COMAL 2.02 internally, and Partner 128 couldn't be a bad addition, though it also jumpers to one of the joystick ports, so you'd have to figure a way around that.
I suppose you could burn C64 games, too, though I don't know if you'd also have to switch the /EXROM and/or /GAME lines to make them work. That would mean the trivial addition of two additional switches - maybe even only one two-pole switch.
Plus you can convert any C128 or C64 program to run in a cartridge. There are instructions on the Intertubes to do this, though I'm too lazy to go look myself. As I understand it, one of the easiest methods is to compile a BASIC program then add the requisite cartridge header with a hex editor.
But having Superbase 128, Superscript 128, or any of dozens of other C128 productivity titles in internal ROM certainly wouldn't suck, either. :)
Quote from: bacon on October 15, 2008, 05:12 AM
You've already mentioned GEOS and BASIC 8. Apart from those, KEYDOS and The Servant come to mind; I'm sure there are others.
Right. There's also the 1581 Tools and Super "C" and TASM etc. As for Robert, I can never tell if he's actually asking a question or just making another futile attempt to show me up. Whatever.
Since Golan is unwilling to divulge any of his "confidential" information on his wonder eprom, I will start a new topic, and hopefully, there will be productive questions and especially *answers* there.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
CommVEx v5 info - http://www.commodore.ca/forum and click on ComVEX
Quote from: RobertB on October 15, 2008, 12:15 PM
Since Golan is unwilling to divulge any of his "confidential" information on his wonder eprom, I will start a new topic, and hopefully, there will be productive questions and especially *answers* there.
You put "confidential" in quotes. Who used that word other than you? I'm willing to answer any questions asked. What I can't do is answer questions that aren't asked. You might find this interesting:
"When you already have a 28 pin socket, like the 128 and 128D has, all you have to do is to put resistors pulling up to Vcc and switches shorting to the ground on the address lines that are higher than the normally supported A0 to A14. Using this method, I used a rotary switch with 16 positions to allow a 128 user 16 extra possible option ROMs."
- Francois Levielle
Quote from: Golan Klinger on October 15, 2008, 01:46 PM
"When you already have a 28 pin socket, like the 128 and 128D has, all you have to do is to put resistors pulling up to Vcc and switches shorting to the ground on the address lines that are higher than the normally supported A0 to A14. Using this method, I used a rotary switch with 16 positions to allow a 128 user 16 extra possible option ROMs."
- Francois Levielle
Francois certainly does know his stuff. I've purchased several "goodies" from him in the past. Most recently, one of his VIC-20 Behr-Bonz multicarts. :)
Just steer clear of his so-called "power supplies". ;)
(yes, I went there)
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on October 15, 2008, 03:44 PMJust steer clear of his so-called "power supplies".(yes, I went there)
Ah! THAT explains the cartoon-like facial smudges and singed hair! O0
The multi function ROM EPROM issue was discussed at TPUG (http://www.tpug.ca/) earlier this evening and 6502dude (http://landover.no-ip.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=32), the hardware guru who designed the VIC-20 MegaCart, confirmed that what I've said is accurate and easily doable.
Robert, care to comment or have you gone back to pretending you're not reading my posts? ::)
I hadn't heard about this thread until last night.
Too bad our resident "cub reporter" to realize that he really doesn't know what he is talking about, with respect to hardware possibilities.
Unfortunately, he has a tendency to propagate misinformation.
Quote from: 6502Dude on October 17, 2008, 11:57 PM
Too bad our resident "cub reporter" to realize that he really doesn't know what he is talking about, with respect to hardware possibilities.
Brian, who are you talking about?
Quote from: 6502Dude on October 17, 2008, 11:57 PM
Unfortunately, he has a tendency to propagate misinformation.
Asking questions is not propagating misinformation. Receiving straight, honest answers is not propagating misinformation. See the thread on "Multi-apps on an eprom for U36 " and put some answers there, i.e., programs that can fit into the limited space of a 27C512.
No more hedging around,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
CommVEx v5 info - http://www.commodore.ca/forum
and click on ComVEX
Quote from: RobertB on October 18, 2008, 01:50 AMSee the thread on "Multi-apps on an eprom for U36 " and put some answers there, i.e., programs that can fit into the limited space of a 27C512.
Some folks actually have used eproms larger than 27C512 (with adapter socket) to allow selection between more than just two images in function ROM space. From the basis of your posts, you seem to conclude this is not feasible.
Is it only you who does not understand this concept?
Pictures were posted (although with reference to Amiga) and logic was presented.
Why would you contend what is discussed is not possible and you need it proven to you?
Oh geez... Isn't there more important stuff for you guys to get your panties in a bunch over?
(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1986/skateswf1.jpg)
Airship: =D =D =D
It seems to me that this was a pretty straight forward discussion until Robert cast doubt so I posted further proof and now a hardware expert has confirmed what I said. Open and shut.
http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/megabit-128-rom-adapter-review-and-pre-orders (http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/megabit-128-rom-adapter-review-and-pre-orders)
has a rom loaded with all the goodies