Hi,
I have not owned a Commodore computer until now.
I bought a C64 through Ebay, and the seller included a 128D without keyboard almost for free.
The C64 seems to work OK, but when I start the 128D ( without keyboard ) it only shows at the screen a green border, and in the "inside" of the borders a series of characters.
As I am a newbie, I don't know if this is normal if a keyboard is not plugged to the 128D, or the machine has any trouble.
When I push the reset button, the 128D resets, but the resulting screen after reset is the same ( green borders, and so on ).
I've inspected the mainboard, but I have not detected visually anything strange.
Might you please tell me whay you think ?
Thanks !!!
Check if the 40/80 key is down.
Quote from: Blacklord on January 15, 2009, 10:11 AM
Check if the 40/80 key is down.
No, the key can't be down, as I have no keyboard.
I plug in the 128D WITHOUT keyboard, as I don't have it.
So I ask if the "green" borders screen could be due to NOT having keyboard.
I'll drag my machie out and pull the keyboard connector out and see what happens.
I wonder if it is displaying happily on RGB and the 40 column output just has the green ... you say they are charaters on screen ? Can you take a picture ?
Mark
Hi Mark.
Thank you for your help.
Now I'm goign to bed ( it's very late here at Spain, and tomorrow I must go to work ).
I'll take a picture and post it as soon as I can.
I connect the C128D to the CRT TV via the RF output, as I don't have a RGB cable.
The Computer only shows the described "green borders" screen with the garbage of characters "inside"; if I do a reset, after it shows the same screen ( sometimes with a slight variation in the "inside" area ).
Perhaps is that if you don't plug a keyboard, the computer can not start.... but I don't know.
Please, let me know if you do the test.
I'll post my pictures too, so all of you can see what I see.
Good night and thanks !
Quote from: caren103 on January 15, 2009, 09:37 AMThe C64 seems to work OK, but when I start the 128D ( without keyboard ) it only shows at the screen a green border, and in the "inside" of the borders a series of characters.
As I am a newbie, I don't know if this is normal if a keyboard is not plugged to the 128D, or the machine has any trouble.
Without taking out my plastic C128D out of storage and testing it, my metal C128DCR shows a black screen without any characters in both 80-column and 40-column modes when used without a keyboard.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org/
Hi,
Here are the pictures:
- After starting the computer:
(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1356/startax4.jpg)
- While pushing the RESET button:
(http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/2166/resetingiy0.jpg)
- After resseting the C128D:
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4353/afterresetiw2.jpg)
The "black" areas are an effect of the refreshing from the TV when you take a picture.
Sometimes the characters mess present some kind of variation ( some flashy areas, etc. ).
RobertB, hi, and thanks for your answer; so your C128CDR doesn't show anything more than a black screen if no keyboard is connected... may I ask how can each screen mode be selected without using any keyboard ?
My C128D is from Germany, and the sticker says "C128D"; it is a metal 128D.
Quote from: caren103 on January 15, 2009, 09:37 AMI bought a C64 through Ebay, and the seller included a 128D without keyboard almost for free.
Even though you didn't get a keyboard, it was still a find since the metalcase C128D is quite rare :)
Quote from: caren103 on January 16, 2009, 01:15 AMRobert B, hi, and thanks for your answer; so your C128CDR doesn't show anything more than a black screen if no keyboard is connected... may I ask how can each screen mode be selected without using any keyboard ?
The 40/80 key on the keyboard is connected directly to one pin on the MMU-circuit. The MMU controls all the memoryconfigurations of the C128. So when the keyboard is absent the MMU will see the 40/80 key as either up or down and select the screens accordingly. This might also be the problem. Since there is no keyboard the MMU-line for the 40/80 key is neither up (high) nor down (low) which may confuse the computer and give you these strange results. Normally, when the keyboard is there and the 40/80 key is pressed at startup or reset, the 80 column screen becomes active and the 40-column screen is empty, i.e with it's grey background and green border. But without the garbage :)
Thanks a lot... I deduce so that the C128D could be working fine, but it is the non-presence of a keyboard which could be making it present that screen.
I've been recapitulating about all since I started checking the computer, and remebered some facts:
1) The very first times I switched it on, the screen on TV was totally black: signal was received by TV, but all was black.
2) I made some resets, and switched off, wait, switched on, the computer some times.
3) I also tried to connect ( with the C128 switched off, of course ) a ( switched off ) external diskdrive 1541-II, switched the diskdrive on, and after this I switched the Commodore on.
I don't remember if the green screen came after making the "2)" steps, or the "3)" steps.
Is any way of ( without a keyboard ) being able to "tell" something to the computer so I can check if it works OK ? Connecting a joystick, inserting a disk with auto-boot ( I don't now if this exist on Commodore; in fact, I don't even have any 5 !/4 disks, but could get some of them for testings; also, I own a XA1541 device ), etc. .
And, also, were a cheap keyboard could be found ( aside of Ebay ) ?
Obviously, I would prefer to know if the C128D works OK before purchasing anything for it ( it's a difficult economic time here too at Spain, and many companies are closing and thus people loosing their jobs, and well, the company where I work.... it's in great difficulties, so.... )
In any case, is great to now the metal C128D is an interesting item !!! Let's hope it works OK !!!
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 16, 2009, 06:09 AM
Even though you didn't get a keyboard, it was still a find since the metalcase C128D is quite rare :)
That probably depends on where you are, they'refairly common here in Oz!
Lance
Oh, I didn't know that. I bought one from a guy in Sweden a few years back and when I recevied it I was really surprised, I had never seen a DCR before. Didn't even know it existed :)
But it's still more uncommon than the plastic version, isn't it?
There is also supposed to exist a flat C128CR, has anyone seen one or has got one?
SmallCleverDinosaur, I've never actually seen a plastic 128D in person. AFAIK, they were only sold in Europe. The metal one is the one that was sold in North America.
caren103, you might try inserting a C64 cartridge game into the expansion port and turning it on. That might force it to start up in 64 mode and launch the game. That may get something to display on the screen besides garbage.
Unfortunately, you might find it difficult to find someone with a spare 128D keyboard. The only online store that I know that even has it listed is at http://www.oldsoftware.com/Commodore.html ... But it says "call or e-mail for availability", so they may or may not even have one. It wouldn't hurt to ask though...
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PM
SmallCleverDinosaur, I've never actually seen a plastic 128D in person. AFAIK, they were only sold in Europe. The metal one is the one that was sold in North America.
No wonder then, that I had never seen a metal one :)
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PM
caren103, you might try inserting a C64 cartridge game into the expansion port and turning it on. That might force it to start up in 64 mode and launch the game. That may get something to display on the screen besides garbage.
That's a good idea :) The C128 might test the GAME and EXROM lines before it performs keyboardchecks and thus be able to switch to C64 mode.
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PM
Unfortunately, you might find it difficult to find someone with a spare 128D keyboard. The only online store that I know that even has it listed is at http://www.oldsoftware.com/Commodore.html ... But it says "call or e-mail for availability", so they may or may not even have one. It wouldn't hurt to ask though...
There are of course alternatives to a real C128 keyboard, i.e using an interface and PC-keyboard instead. But those interfaces are quite expensive if used only as a substitute for a lost keyboard. But as a new and cool piece of technology they are quite nice :) Look here (http://www.ide64.org/pckeyb.html) or here (http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/c=key).
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PM
SmallCleverDinosaur, I've never actually seen a plastic 128D in person. AFAIK, they were only sold in Europe. The metal one is the one that was sold in North America.
And Australia too for both versions.
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 16, 2009, 10:43 PM
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PM
SmallCleverDinosaur, I've never actually seen a plastic 128D in person. AFAIK, they were only sold in Europe. The metal one is the one that was sold in North America.
No wonder then, that I had never seen a metal one :)
Let me rephrase what I said earlier... The plastic 128D, as far as I know, was only sold in Europe. The metal one came out later as a "cost reduced" version of the original 128D, and was sold worldwide. So for those of us in places like North America and Australia, we never saw the plastic one because the metal version is the only one that was sold.
Many thanks for all the info !!!
- I agree: inserting a C64 game cart seems a VERY good idea, at least to try a method to check the C128D. I will look to find somewhere a cart which costs me cheap shipped to Spain.
- I have written to "oldsoftware.com" as suggested, asking about a C128D keyboard. Let's see what they will say.
- Regarding the interfaces PC Keyboard-to-C128D , they seem pretty good items. I'm trying to find its price, etc., to evaluate this option too.
While I can not see the screen detail well, the "garbage" appears to be a consistent character or sequence of characters.
This may be caused by open on address lines to character rom (or video memory), defective video memory, or defective video CRT controller chip.
I do not expect lack of keyboard to cause the video illustrated in 2nd image.
Quote from: 6502Dude on January 17, 2009, 03:23 AMI do not expect lack of keyboard to cause the video illustrated in 2nd image.
The screen in 2nd image is what appears while you're pushing the "reset" button ( so, the screen the machine shows while is resseting ); I thought precisely that image was the more "normal" one...
Quote from: caren103 on January 17, 2009, 03:48 AM
Quote from: 6502Dude on January 17, 2009, 03:23 AMI do not expect lack of keyboard to cause the video illustrated in 2nd image.
The screen in 2nd image is what appears while you're pushing the "reset" button ( so, the screen the machine shows while is resseting ); I thought precisely that image was the more "normal" one...
Me bad.
I should have typed "3rd image" which appears to be screen of reverse * characters.
Quote from: caren103 on January 17, 2009, 02:28 AM
- Regarding the interfaces PC Keyboard-to-C128D , they seem pretty good items. I'm trying to find its price, etc., to evaluate this option too.
In october 2008 Josef Soucek of the IDE64 team gave me a price of 56 Euros including shipping within the EU for their interface (this one (http://www.ide64.org/pckeyb.html)).
Quote from: 6502Dude on January 17, 2009, 03:23 AM
While I can not see the screen detail well, the "garbage" appears to be a consistent character or sequence of characters.
This may be caused by open on address lines to character rom (or video memory), defective video memory, or defective video CRT controller chip.
I do not expect lack of keyboard to cause the video illustrated in 2nd image.
I'm afraid that I have to agree with the 6502Dude, there might be some malfunction with the computer that wouldn't go away even if it had a keyboard attached.
Quote from: caren103 on January 16, 2009, 08:31 AM
1) The very first times I switched it on, the screen on TV was totally black: signal was received by TV, but all was black.
2) I made some resets, and switched off, wait, switched on, the computer some times.
3) I also tried to connect ( with the C128 switched off, of course ) a ( switched off ) external diskdrive 1541-II, switched the diskdrive on, and after this I switched the Commodore on.
I don't remember if the green screen came after making the "2)" steps, or the "3)" steps.
I suspect you have a cable from the computer to the TV that has a set of smaller cables? The video connector of the C128 consists of these lines:
Lum/Sync
Audio out
Video out
Audio in
Color out
Ground
If you by accident tried to connect your TV set to the wrong signal you might have damaged the computer. It seems that the C128 is very fragile when it comes to this connector. I once tried all the different cables from the connector and connected them one by one to my TV until I got the picture. And then it looked more or less like yours does. That was a plastic C128D and it never worked again :(
BTW, does anyone know what the "Audio in" signal is used for?
The SID chip has an audio in input that can be mixed with SID sounds. It's meant for chaining SIDs together, but it works for any audio input of the correct level. Don't overload it.
I should have known :) Thanks!
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 17, 2009, 05:30 AM
Quote from: caren103 on January 17, 2009, 02:28 AM
- Regarding the interfaces PC Keyboard-to-C128D , they seem pretty good items. I'm trying to find its price, etc., to evaluate this option too.
In october 2008 Josef Soucek of the IDE64 team gave me a price of 56 Euros including shipping within the EU for their interface (this one (http://www.ide64.org/pckeyb.html)).
Quote from: 6502Dude on January 17, 2009, 03:23 AM
While I can not see the screen detail well, the "garbage" appears to be a consistent character or sequence of characters.
This may be caused by open on address lines to character rom (or video memory), defective video memory, or defective video CRT controller chip.
I do not expect lack of keyboard to cause the video illustrated in 2nd image.
I'm afraid that I have to agree with the 6502Dude, there might be some malfunction with the computer that wouldn't go away even if it had a keyboard attached.
Quote from: caren103 on January 16, 2009, 08:31 AM
1) The very first times I switched it on, the screen on TV was totally black: signal was received by TV, but all was black.
2) I made some resets, and switched off, wait, switched on, the computer some times.
3) I also tried to connect ( with the C128 switched off, of course ) a ( switched off ) external diskdrive 1541-II, switched the diskdrive on, and after this I switched the Commodore on.
I don't remember if the green screen came after making the "2)" steps, or the "3)" steps.
I suspect you have a cable from the computer to the TV that has a set of smaller cables? The video connector of the C128 consists of these lines:
Lum/Sync
Audio out
Video out
Audio in
Color out
Ground
If you by accident tried to connect your TV set to the wrong signal you might have damaged the computer. It seems that the C128 is very fragile when it comes to this connector. I once tried all the different cables from the connector and connected them one by one to my TV until I got the picture. And then it looked more or less like yours does. That was a plastic C128D and it never worked again :(
BTW, does anyone know what the "Audio in" signal is used for?
I connected and connect the computer to TV with a RF cable ( and always with computer and TV off when connecting the cable ), throught the RF out connector from the C128D.
What I don't understand is why the first times I started the computer the screen was black, and after some testing, it changed to this... I don't know if the computer came in a configuration to work in 80 columns ( if then is when shows a black screen ) and with the tests it changed to 40 column mode, and showing "something was wrong".... I don't know.
And yes, I agree that something is wrong in the C128D.... I will try nowadays to insert a game cartridge to check what happens.
Anyway, if you are rightn and something about the video memory is damaged, could it be replaced or fixed ?
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 17, 2009, 12:49 AM
Let me rephrase what I said earlier... The plastic 128D, as far as I know, was only sold in Europe. The metal one came out later as a "cost reduced" version of the original 128D, and was sold worldwide. So for those of us in places like North America and Australia, we never saw the plastic one because the metal version is the only one that was sold.
Not quite correct Andrew. Here in Australia all three models (flat, plastic & metal) were available.
cheers,
Lance
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 16, 2009, 05:36 PMBut it's still more uncommon than the plastic version, isn't it?
Relatively common here in North America.
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 16, 2009, 05:36 PM
There is also supposed to exist a flat C128CR, has anyone seen one or has got one?
No, I don't know of the existence of that one. Of course, Bil Herd would know best. :)
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org/
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PM...I've never actually seen a plastic 128D in person.
Ah, if you had attended the Vintage Computer Festival a few years ago or CommVEx last year, you would have seen my plastic C128D, which I bought back in 1999 (IIRC).
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PMUnfortunately, you might find it difficult to find someone with a spare 128D keyboard.
(RobertB raises hand.) Me.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org/
Quote from: RobertB on January 17, 2009, 01:17 PM
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PMUnfortunately, you might find it difficult to find someone with a spare 128D keyboard.
(RobertB raises hand.) Me.
Does this mean you have a spare keyboard for our friend in Spain? :)
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 17, 2009, 09:37 PM
Quote from: RobertB on January 17, 2009, 01:17 PM
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PMUnfortunately, you might find it difficult to find someone with a spare 128D keyboard.
(RobertB raises hand.) Me.
Does this mean you have a spare keyboard for our friend in Spain? :)
At least, it means he has one spare keyboard ! :-)
Anyway, I'll have to check the C128D with the C64 cartridge when I get one.
And regarding the different options ( adapters, keyboards, ... ), so far it can sound a bit strange, but I've noticed sometimes at least it can be cheaper to buy a C128D complete with keyboard.
Quote from: Blacklord on January 17, 2009, 10:45 AMNot quite correct Andrew. Here in Australia all three models (flat, plastic & metal) were available.
I should've known... Australia, it seems, was part of Europe when it came to the release of Commodore hardware. Same goes for the 1570 disk drive, which wasn't released in North America either.
Quote from: RobertB on January 17, 2009, 01:17 PM
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PM...I've never actually seen a plastic 128D in person.
Ah, if you had attended the Vintage Computer Festival a few years ago or CommVEx last year, you would have seen my plastic C128D, which I bought back in 1999 (IIRC).
That C128D came from Europe though, didn't it? I'm pretty sure I'm right that the plastic 128D was never released in North America.
Quote from: RobertB on January 17, 2009, 01:17 PM
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PMUnfortunately, you might find it difficult to find someone with a spare 128D keyboard.
(RobertB raises hand.) Me.
That does it. Robert had everything. ;D
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 18, 2009, 04:02 AM
Quote from: Blacklord on January 17, 2009, 10:45 AMNot quite correct Andrew. Here in Australia all three models (flat, plastic & metal) were available.
I should've known... Australia, it seems, was part of Europe when it came to the release of Commodore hardware. Same goes for the 1570 disk drive, which wasn't released in North America either.
Commodore regarded Australia as one of it's best markets - they had a very high penetration here. As a result, we often got products ahead of other parts of the world - I have an article somewhere from an Australian mag stating the the SX64 was to be released in Australia before anywhere else - I'll try & dig it out.
Interestingly Commodore Australia didn't want the 128. The CEO here threatened to rip out the Z80 from every one of them :)
Lance
Quote from: Blacklord on January 18, 2009, 04:28 AMInterestingly Commodore Australia didn't want the 128. The CEO here threatened to rip out the Z80 from every one of them :)
That's just pure and utter blasphemy! ;)
Quote from: caren103 on January 18, 2009, 02:51 AM
And regarding the different options ( adapters, keyboards, ... ), so far it can sound a bit strange, but I've noticed sometimes at least it can be cheaper to buy a C128D complete with keyboard.
The keyboard interfaces are nice technology but are also pretty expensive. If all you want is to get a working C128, it's probably better to get another one from ebay. So we don't blame you :) We're just excited that you want to be a part of the C128 world :)
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 18, 2009, 04:06 AM
Quote from: RobertB on January 17, 2009, 01:17 PM
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 16, 2009, 08:10 PMUnfortunately, you might find it difficult to find someone with a spare 128D keyboard.
(RobertB raises hand.) Me.
That does it. Robert had everything. ;D
I knew it! Robert does have everything :D
Quote from: Blacklord on January 18, 2009, 04:28 AM
Commodore regarded Australia as one of it's best markets - they had a very high penetration here. As a result, we often got products ahead of other parts of the world - I have an article somewhere from an Australian mag stating the the SX64 was to be released in Australia before anywhere else - I'll try & dig it out.
Commodore was very popular in Sweden as well but we are a small market with a population of only about 8 million. Besides, Commodore had to customize all of their models since Swedes insist of having our own characters (åäö) as part of our alphabet and computer keyboards. So the release of a new machine was always delayed here. That's why there are all those Swedish Kernals and Character ROM files out there :)
But we also had domestic contributions to the Commodore world with companies like Handic that produced a lot of good hardware. For example the Superbox64 which was a cartridge expander with built in support for the IEEE/488 version used for the PET computers. So I'm very proud, very proud :D
Superbox64:
(http://www.commodore128.org.uk/images/forumpics/Superbox64.jpg)
Quote from: caren103 on January 18, 2009, 02:51 AMAt least, it means he has one spare keyboard ! :-)
Oh, there may be more in storage.
Quote from: caren103 on January 18, 2009, 02:51 AM...I've noticed sometimes at least it can be cheaper to buy a C128D complete with keyboard.
Perhaps. The one that is here is $15 plus shipping.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org/
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 18, 2009, 04:06 AMThat C128D came from Europe though, didn't it?
Yes, that plastic C128D was bought in England. A few months ago at a TOGA meeting, I picked up another plastic C128D.
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 18, 2009, 04:06 AMRobert had everything. ;D
At the last SCCAN meeting, if you had looked carefully in the back seat of my car, the spare C128D keyboard was sitting there. :)
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org/
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 18, 2009, 05:38 AMI knew it! Robert does have everything :D
Nah, I don't have that interface below. :)
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 18, 2009, 05:38 AMFor example the Superbox64 which was a cartridge expander with built in support for the IEEE/488 version used for the PET computers.
Ooo, nifty! I've heard of Superbox, but I've never seen one. What items would plug into the slots? Ordinary C64 carts? Is that some kind of connector on the left side?
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore/Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org/
Hi Robert, well, I see you own tons of material !
Thank you for your offering: I have written an e-mail to you about it.
Quote from: RobertB on January 18, 2009, 06:14 AM
Ooo, nifty! I've heard of Superbox, but I've never seen one. What items would plug into the slots? Ordinary C64 carts? Is that some kind of connector on the left side?
Yes, it's an ordinary cartridge expander for any type of C64 cartridges. The Superbox only ran in C64 mode. The connector in the top left of the picture is for the IEEE/488 connector that the PET-series used to connect to peripherals like printers and discdrives. It was later replaced with the serialbus (which is a serialform of the IEEE/488) on the C64 and C128. The white and red on the left side of the picture are switches. Four white and one red. The white are for deciding which of the three cartridgeslots should be active. The fourth white is to activate the IEEE/488 interface and the red is for reset.
I also have another item that is REALLY rare. I bought it long ago and used it with my old PET dualdrive 3040 and the C128. It's also a IEEE/488 interface but it runs in either C64 or C128 mode (with the help of a switch on the cartridge). See the picture below. The circuits are actually mounted on the bottomside of the PCB.
(http://www.commodore128.org.uk/images/forumpics/BB_IEEE-488.jpg)
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 18, 2009, 08:32 AMI also have another item that is REALLY rare. I bought it long ago and used it with my old PET dualdrive 3040 and the C128. It's also a IEEE/488 interface but it runs in either C64 or C128 mode (with the help of a switch on the cartridge). See the picture below. The circuits are actually mounted on the bottomside of the PCB.
How mysterious! How rare! From where did you get it? When was it manufactured? What was the original price of it?
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Catch the Fatman and Circuit Girl at
http://vimeo.com/videos/search:jeri%20ellsworth
So many questions, so few answers :( I don't remember, it was so long ago :(
It was already used when I bought it. It was a mere coincidence that I found it. I don't remember what I payed for it, much less what the previous owner payed for it, if he ever told me.
According to the manual it was produced in 1985 by a company called "Brain Boxes" from Liverpool, UK. That's about all I know about the manufacturer.
This cartridge is actually a nice piece of work, very well put together. And probably a lot of work behind it. It worked beautifully together with my 3040 and printer (I think it was the 3022).
I'm working on OCR'ing the manual for it if you are interested to see it.
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on January 20, 2009, 06:52 AMI'm working on OCR'ing the manual for it if you are interested to see it.
Sure! Knowledge is power (or it's a lot of clutter in the mind). :)
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Catch the Fatman and Circuit Girl at
http://vimeo.com/jeri
Quote from: RobertB on January 18, 2009, 05:58 AMThe one that is here is $15 plus shipping.
Ouch! The shipping to Spain is double the price I quoted for the keyboard. :(
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Catch the Fatman and Circuit Girl at
http://vimeo.com/jeri
Quote from: RobertB on January 21, 2009, 01:06 PMOuch! The shipping to Spain is double the price I quoted for the keyboard. :(
So it's $45, including shipping, for a loose 128D keyboard? Considering the rarity of these things these days, I'd say that's still not a bad price...
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on January 21, 2009, 05:00 PMSo it's $45, including shipping, for a loose 128D keyboard?
Actually, with the Euro-to-dollar exchange rate, it comes out to be slightly less than 35 Euros -- still not cheap but a better bargain for our Spanish friend.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
Catch the Fatman and Circuit Girl at
http://vimeo.com/jeri
Hi !
Yes, shipping charges are the "big" part....
I think I'll try first to check a C64 cartridge with my C128D, to see what happens, as if finally I'm sure the C128D is broken, I think it would be better to purchase a complete C128D.
caren103, that's probably a good idea. You can always keep the one you have now as a "parts unit". I did find a couple posts on Lemon64 where people talk about their 128D without keyboard being in working condition, although they didn't specifically say if the computer booted up alright without one attached.
Well, I have just purchased a Commodore 64 loose cartridge: "International Soccer", which I think is one of the most common carts ( if not the most common ), but it had a cheap price shipped to Spain, so...
When it arrives, I'll try it in the C128D.... I'll cross my fingers !!!
Just so you know, I powered up my C128DCR (metal case) without a keyboard in 40 column mode and it booted fine.
Quote from: Mangelore on January 25, 2009, 09:17 AM
Just so you know, I powered up my C128DCR (metal case) without a keyboard in 40 column mode and it booted fine.
Thanks for the info.
Anyway, I'll check with the cart when it arrives, as hope is the last thing to get rid of.... well.... so far in the thread, I'm really I'm almost sure the C128d is not working OK, but, somewhat I still need to check with the cart.
EDIT: By the way, if it happens you have some C64 cartridge, might you check what happens when you start your C128DCR without keyboard but with a C64 cart inserted?
Hi !
I have just received today the "International Soccer" cartridge.
I have first of all cleaned all contacts.
Then I have first switched on the C128D, only to check that the mess at the screen was still there ( yes, there it was ).
I have switched off the C128D, inserted the cart, switched on, and the cartridge screen has appeared perfectly; I have left alone the cart, and after some more intro screens, a demo game has started.
After 5 minutes, it has freezed.
But at least, it has worked.
After that, I have switched off the computer, inserted a joystick, and try again, but this time the first screen appeared, but that was all.
After more checkings, always with the cart inserted, sometimes at power on the screen remained black, sometimes the first cart screen appeared but after that freezed, etc. .
What seems to me, is that at leat you can see correctly something on screen, so perhaps if a keyboard is inserted, the computer might work OK.
Anyway, buying only a keyboard would be somewhat risky as I am not 100% sure the computer works OK; perhaps I'll take an eye on a complete C128D...
In any case, the old cart has made the C128 to reaction and show something coherent on screen.
There is a C128D keyboard on sale right now on the Swedish version of ebay (Tradera). Follow this link
http://www.tradera.com/auction/auction.aspx?aid=84219434 (http://www.tradera.com/auction/auction.aspx?aid=84219434)
The starting price is SEK 75:- which is about 7 Euros. If you take a look at the auction, then look for the green price "Högsta bud". That is the current price.
Hi !!!
Many thanks for the link !!!: I've taken a look.
But just an hour ago, I've purchased a C128D with keyboard, manuals and carton box ( 70,50 euros shipped to Spain ).
So I'll wait until it arrives, and then will check the keyboard with my current un-keyed C128D, so I can know if it works OK, or it si a simply "for spare parts" case.
Well, today I've received the C128D I bought, including its keyboard.
I've used thus that keyboard with the "problematic" C128D and...
The 128 mode doesn't start even with the keyboard connected.
But, if I start the computer with the Commodore Key pressed, the C64 mode starts OK.
I have not tried to read a disk in that C64 mode, but with a C64 cartridge game inserted, it hasn't worked OK.
So, the computer is not working well.... I wonder what can be wrong as the C64 mode can be started....
And what about the new one? Hopefully it's in good, working condition. That way, you can just hold on to the other one as a "parts unit". :)
Quote from: Andrew Wiskow on February 24, 2009, 07:41 AM
And what about the new one? Hopefully it's in good, working condition. That way, you can just hold on to the other one as a "parts unit". :)
Yeah, the new one seems to work OK in the C64, C128 and CPM mode ( well, at least in the 40 columns mode; I've restarted the CPM mode leaving the "80 colums mode" key pressed, and I was not able to write anything... I had the computer connected to the TV by the RF cable ), it can read disks....
I will keep the wrong one for parts, although I am not sure what parts I could use from it if the "good" one becomes faulty.
Quote from: caren103 on February 24, 2009, 10:50 AM...well, at least in the 40 columns mode; I've restarted the CPM mode leaving the "80 colums mode" key pressed, and I was not able to write anything... I had the computer connected to the TV by the RF cable...
Yes, connecting via the RF cable will only give you 40 columns. To see the C128D's CP/M mode, you have to display 80 columns via the C128D's RGB port to 80-column monitor or via the monochrome video signal in the RGB port to a 40-column composite monitor/t.v..
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
CommVEx v5 info - http://www.commodore.ca/forum and click on ComVEX
Quote from: caren103 on February 24, 2009, 10:50 AMI will keep the wrong one for parts, although I am not sure what parts I could use from it if the "good" one becomes faulty.
Although I'm not sure exactly what's wrong with the bad 128D, I'm sure there are plenty of good parts in it that could be used in your "good" 128D, should they ever go bad. For example, the SID chip, the power supply, the 1571D disk drive, etc...
Isn't it pretty weird though that C64 mode works and not C128 mode?
What could possibly be mailfunctioning in the computer that lets the C64 mode run but not the C128 mode? A C128 mode specific ROM circuit?
Anyone?
These items, quoted from Ray Carlsen's page, show chips that could allow 64 mode but not 128 mode:
U1 906108-02 (6526) VIA (interchanges with 8521)
# unknown (8521) VIA later version C128
C64 startup screen normal, but no cursor. May not start up in 128
mode. No keyboard, joyport, or cassette access. Partial failure: some keys
or joystick positions don't work. Cartridge works. Swap U1 with U4 to
check.
U33 318018-02 C128 BASIC LO ROM
No BASIC startup screen in 128 mode only. Computer goes into
"monitor" mode.
U34 318019-02 C128 BASIC HI ROM
Blank screen with border at 128 mode startup. Lines or "garbage"
inside border.
U35 318020-03 C128 Kernal ROM
Comes up in C64 mode, but cartridge doesn't work. Partial failure:
blank screen in 128 mode only.
I've personally had the C128 BASIC Hi ROM go bad on one of my C128s, which I was able to diagnose thanks to Ray Carlsen's page. I swapped it out with a known good chip, and it worked just fine after that. :)
It's very interesting....
U34 318019-02 C128 BASIC HI ROM
Blank screen with border at 128 mode startup. Lines or "garbage"
inside border.
U35 318020-03 C128 Kernal ROM
Comes up in C64 mode, but cartridge doesn't work. Partial failure:
blank screen in 128 mode only.
It seems any of these ( or both ) could be failing.
I don't remember now if those chips are inserted on sockets ( so they could be easily replaced ), or soldered to the mainboard.
Also, I suppose the numbers "318019-02" and "318020-03" are the ones printed on each of these both chips, so they can be identified this way.
I'll take a lood at the mainboard when I've got five minutes, and check Ebay for them.
EDIT: I've found an image of a C128D mainboard, and I've seen that is the "U34" and "U35" the code that identifies the place in which each chip is placed, and also that they're placed on sockets.
The chip locations (U34, U35, etc.) may be different because that troubleshooting list is for a C128, not a 128D. But the chip numbers should be the same or similar. However, the 128D has a combined 64/128 kernal, not seperate kernals like in the flat C128.
The C128 has a 318020-03 128 Kernal ROM, containing the editor, the Z80 BIOS and the actual kernal part. The American 128DCR has a 318023-02 combined kernal ROM. The layout of this is C64 BASIC (901226-01), C64 KERNAL (901227-03), C128 editor, Z80 BIOS and C128 KERNAL.
This information comes from Bo Zimmerman's site at this page:
http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/c128/index.html
Quote from: caren103 on February 25, 2009, 10:21 AM
I'll take a lood at the mainboard when I've got five minutes, and check Ebay for them.
Since you now have two C128D's you can make sure that it is the ROM's that are malfunctioning by swapping them between the machines. Before you spend the money for new ones on ebay :)
Besides, if the ROM's are faulty, you shouldn't buy new ones on ebay, I'm sure someone here (me for example) can help you burn new ones :)
Hi !
Many thanks for all your help and your offerings: they are all greatly appreciated.
Some years ago I owned two Sinclair QLs.
One of them got faulty, and I tried to change the Rom chip between the QLs to check the faulty one.... as a result, both of the Qls got faulty...
So if I'm a bit scared about interchanging chips between the working C128D and the problematic one.... perhaps I will get two faulty C128D !
Anyway, I have just now opened the faulty C128D, and seen these two chips:
- U32 socket: a white sticker on the chip with mechanographied writing says "315078-02 / W" and "C128 Ker. Din".
- U34 socket: "318022-02", "1986 CBM" and "0987-01".
According to the mentioned Bo Zimmerman's site, the "315078-02" is "The German C128 KERNAL ROM, containing the editor, the Z80 BIOS and the actual KERNAL part. Saved from an EPROM.", which is correct as my faulty C128D is a German computer.
The "318022-02" is "Commodore 128 BASIC V7 ROM. 1986 version. Same as 318018-04+318019-04.".
So as it's a C128D, the "problem" should be with one or both of these chips, am I right ?
I'll try to get a chip extration tool from a friend to remove and reinsert the chips, to see what happens ( I'm tempted to use a screwdriver as I did when I replaced an Amiga rom... but I think is better to use the extraction tool ).
P.S.: SmallCleverDinosaur, as you have mentioned about burning the roms, what class of Eproms could be used to replace those both ? Might the Willem programmer or a Pic programmer be valid ?
To bad about the Sinclair QLs :(
One thing to always remember when dealing with IC's, EPROMs included, is that they are very sensitive to static electricity. So always make sure that you are grounded before working with them. Good idea to use an extraction tool!
Even though it is quite obvious, one can always point out that it is very important that the EPROMs are inserted in the right direction into the sockets of the computer. Otherwise both the EPROMs and the motherboard can get damaged.
Quote from: caren103 on February 26, 2009, 04:03 AM
Anyway, I have just now opened the faulty C128D, and seen these two chips:
- U32 socket: a white sticker on the chip with mechanographied writing says "315078-02 / W" and "C128 Ker. Din".
- U34 socket: "318022-02", "1986 CBM" and "0987-01".
According to the mentioned Bo Zimmerman's site, the "315078-02" is "The German C128 KERNAL ROM, containing the editor, the Z80 BIOS and the actual KERNAL part. Saved from an EPROM.", which is correct as my faulty C128D is a German computer.
The "318022-02" is "Commodore 128 BASIC V7 ROM. 1986 version. Same as 318018-04+318019-04.".
So as it's a C128D, the "problem" should be with one or both of these chips, am I right ?
This, of course, is not an exact science :) So it might be the ROMs that are faulty. But then again, it might not. Only way to know is to try.
Quote from: caren103 on February 26, 2009, 04:03 AM
P.S.: SmallCleverDinosaur, as you have mentioned about burning the roms, what class of Eproms could be used to replace those both ? Might the Willem programmer or a Pic programmer be valid ?
The 315078 is a 16K ROM and the 318022 is a 32K ROM so a 27128 and a 27256 EPROM should work fine (or a 27c128 and 27c256). These are standard EPROM IC's. A Willem or a Pic programmer will do the job as long as they can burn these EPROM types (which at least most versions of the Willem programmer can).
Yes, I guess is a matter of trying it... though I am a bit scared about breaking something in the good C128D, I suppose is better to check first to waste any money to interchange chips to see what happens.
I'll see if my friend can provide me with the extraction tool ( I had one that I uses years ago, but now I can't find it ).
My options would be if I find that the computer works with "good" chips from the good C128D:
- Trying to get a Willem programmer and some Eproms, but obviously I should think other uses I could give to it as it would cost me more money than buying another C128D.
Anyway, can be used the same Eprom type for replacing the two original roms chips noticed ?
I mean, if you can use two 27256 ( or two 27c256 ), instead of one 27128 and one 27256.
I ask this because some Ebay seller sells packs with only a type of Eprom ( I live in a small city, without no electronic shop ).
- If once identified the wrong chips, if a forum member willing to make me the favour, might told me how much would cost to burnt them and send me.
Anyway, during the checkings today, I've done a failure.... I had left inserted the "International Soccer" cartridge with the C128D on ( the game, as other times, had get stuck at the starting screen ), and I've gone to make somethings.
After returning, I've taken off the cartridge, and reinserted it again, realizing almos immediately that the C128D was on !
I've no noticed any change in the C128D working ( or non-working ) order after that.
Anyway, tomorrow I'll connect the C128D keyboard and try to start the C64 mode, and to run a demo from disk.
Quote from: caren103 on February 26, 2009, 11:30 AM
- Trying to get a Willem programmer and some Eproms, but obviously I should think other uses I could give to it as it would cost me more money than buying another C128D.
As I said, let me know if you need help burning Eproms, I have all the tools needed :)
Quote from: caren103 on February 26, 2009, 11:30 AM
Anyway, can be used the same Eprom type for replacing the two original roms chips noticed ?
I mean, if you can use two 27256 ( or two 27c256 ), instead of one 27128 and one 27256.
Yes, you can use a 27256 instead of a 27128. If you take a look at the picture below you will see that the only difference between these two ROM types is pin no 27. On the 27128 this pin is used to tell the Eprom that it is about to be programmed (marked by a P with a horisontal line above it). On the 27256 pin 27 is address line 14 (A14).
During programming of the 27128 this pin will be driven low, but in the C128 this pin will be high all the time. That means that if you use a 27256 the address line 14 will be held high all the time so only the higher 16K are being used. The lower 16K will not be accessible. So if you are going to burn the contents of a 27128 onto a 27256 and want to use it as a 27128 the 16K from the 27128 should be burnt in the higher 16K of the 27256. Or, to be sure, burn the 16K from the 27128 in both the lower and higher part of the 27256 :)
(http://commodore128.org.uk/images/forumpics/Eprom_27128_27256_thm.jpg) (http://commodore128.org.uk/images/forumpics/Eprom_27128_27256.jpg)
Quote from: caren103 on February 26, 2009, 11:30 AM
Anyway, during the checkings today, I've done a failure.... I had left inserted the "International Soccer" cartridge with the C128D on ( the game, as other times, had get stuck at the starting screen ), and I've gone to make somethings.
After returning, I've taken off the cartridge, and reinserted it again, realizing almos immediately that the C128D was on !
I've no noticed any change in the C128D working ( or non-working ) order after that.
Anyway, tomorrow I'll connect the C128D keyboard and try to start the C64 mode, and to run a demo from disk.
Oops... :( Let's hope you didn't destroy anything in the computer, but sometimes you are lucky :)
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on February 27, 2009, 12:11 AMOops... :( Let's hope you didn't destroy anything in the computer, but sometimes you are lucky :)
First of all, many thanks for all your explanations and help offerings: they're greatly appreciated !!!
After the "cartridge" affair, I made some more testing that same night, and the usual garbage was there as always, so apparently no a catastrophic issue had happened.
The next day, I switched on again the bad C128D with the "international soccer" cartridge inserted, and again the first screen of the game appeared, and as usually the game hanged there, with some screen corruption.
I left the C128D switched on there on that screen, and went to look for the good C128D.
When I returned, I switched off the bad C128D, extracted the cartridge, inserted the keyboard, and switched the C128D on.
Only a black blank screen without border appeared, and this is all I've been getting until now ( only one time some little garbage appeared inside the black screen ).
Before the "cartridge" affair many times the bad C128D offered too a totally black screen, even if the game cartridge was inserted.
So I think perhaps the "cartridge" affair made something, but perhaps is a "normal" behaviour due to its "deffectiveness".
Regarding all the simptoms until now, and the Ray Carlsens's page, many possibilites of damaged parts are possible.... I'll do some more testings.
My friend finally doesn't have any "chip extraction tool"....
Nowadays, I'll do more testings, and in any case this bad C128D can be good to provide a working PSU, a (supposedily) workiing disk drive, etc., to the working C128D, if sometimes needed.
But... I like to investigate and if possible would like to repair the bad C128D ! No surrender ! :-)
Quote from: caren103 on March 01, 2009, 04:24 AM
But... I like to investigate and if possible would like to repair the bad C128D ! No surrender ! :-)
That's the spirit! :)
BTW, did you ever try to start the good C128 without the keyboard connected to see how it reacts?
Quote from: SmallCleverDinosaur on March 02, 2009, 05:58 AM
Quote from: caren103 on March 01, 2009, 04:24 AM
But... I like to investigate and if possible would like to repair the bad C128D ! No surrender ! :-)
That's the spirit! :)
BTW, did you ever try to start the good C128 without the keyboard connected to see how it reacts?
I think I did... I think because I've been done so many tests I am a bit confused right now... I think it started in C128 mode ( basic V 7.0 ).
Regarding the "wrong" C128D I have taken off with a screwdriver the U32 (315078-02/W) and U34 (318022-02) chips, and reinserted them.
The 315078-02/W is an Eprom, so perhaps it is not an original Commodore chip, and the computer was "upgraded".... I say this only basing it in a C128D motherboard picture I've foung by the Internet.
The U36 socket is empty.
In any case, until now the computer continues showing the black screen, and only once has shown a totally white screen.... perhaps at least one chip that is wrong with the computer is:
"U11 315012-01 (8721) PLA (Programable Logic Array)
No bootup in any mode. In 40 columns: blank screen, white screen,
light blue screen (no border), random checkerboard pattern or flashing
"garbage" characters. "
This chip is soldered, not in a socket :-( .
Quote from: caren103 on March 02, 2009, 06:29 AM
The 315078-02/W is an Eprom, so perhaps it is not an original Commodore chip, and the computer was "upgraded".... I say this only basing it in a C128D motherboard picture I've foung by the Internet.
I'm not sure, but I think you mentioned that this C128D came from Germany? If so, the Eprom (which is the Kernal) is probably altered in order to handle the different keyboard layout and character sets used in German Commodores. This was standard procedure back in the 80's in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, that have special characters in their ordinary alphabet. This was before "internationalization" could be done via software so the ROM itself had to be altered (or "upgraded") in order to handle these characters. In Sweden for example we have the characters åäö in our ordinary alphabet.
Quote from: caren103 on March 02, 2009, 06:29 AM
The U36 socket is empty.
This is always empty unless a function ROM has been added to the C128. The C128 was equipped with a spare socket so that it was able to upgrade the computer with new functions contained in a 32K function ROM Eprom that maps into the memory map of the C128 at $8000.
Thanks (again) for your explanations.
Yes, both of my C128D come from Germany, so the reason for the Eprom surely is the one that you mention.
Anyway, I think I won't risk the working C128D, and what I'll try is to get an Eprom programmer if I find one very cheap for the 27XXX eprom series, and a chip extractor, and then do some testing with Eproms.
In any case, if the faulty chip is the PLA chip, or even one of the main processors, then repairing it would be for me almost impossible for me :-( .