Many of you might already know about Graphics Booster 128, a hardware-based "BASIC extension for the 80 column mode (VDC) of the C128." I've heard of it before, but I've never seen a picture of its output until recently. Sorry about the size... mods, feel free to adjust.
More info: http://www.c128.net/infos/gb128info.htm (http://www.c128.net/infos/gb128info.htm)
"It provides a graphical resolution of up to 752 x 700 (monocolor, interlaced) and 640 x 540 (multicolor, interlaced) respectively. The Graphic Booster needs a VDC with 64 K RAM (already available in the C128 DCR) and has therefore been sold for use with "normal" C128's together with a VDC-64K-upgradeboard."
(http://www.c128.net/infos/image/pic_gb_beispiele.jpg)
Thanks for that. Now I have more information on this near-mythical piece of hardware.
However, from the fuzzy photo,
what comprises it?
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
All I know is what I've read on the site... this PDF is pretty informative:
http://www.c128.net/pdf/The_C-128_GraphicBooster.pdf (http://www.c128.net/pdf/The_C-128_GraphicBooster.pdf)
Quote from: saehn on October 29, 2009, 03:38 AM
All I know is what I've read on the site... this PDF is pretty informative...
Yeah, but I want to know what exactly are those chips on the board.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
Squinting at the picture there is a little wire leading off to some where near the ROM socket .. wonder if he has loaded more that 64K onto the VDC and then doing some sort of bank switching with 64k being the odd lines and the other 64k for even lines ?
Be nice if someone had one of these and took it apart for us :-)
Mark
Here is more information:
http://www.c128.net/pdf/CW_8901_GraphicBooster_en.pdf (http://www.c128.net/pdf/CW_8901_GraphicBooster_en.pdf)
Dan...
Ahhhh .. so it is simply a 64k RAM upgrade!
But then the article says that there are 2 new versions that let you use 256 out of 3000 colours ... wonder how that is done ? FLI for VDC ? OR actual real hardware to do it ?
Mark
This (almost) has to be hardware related, if we can trust the English translated manual. For example, using dithering + interlace is approximately like FLI. There are some programs that I've heard use this technique to produce 16*16 = 256 colors.
But according to the manual, "The colorblocks 8x6 pixel can be set independent from each other. 256 foreground and 256 backgroundcolors. If this matrix is filled with PATTERN1,0,0,0 you can display 65000 colors in this matrix."
If you can get 256 colors without dithering (65000+ with dithering), then it must use some special hardware... Unless they use double dithering: interlace for one layer, then patterns for a second layer...
Also the PDF describes installation for C128D and C128DCR. Since these have 64K VRAM already, it seems it must be more than simple VRAM upgrade...
Very interesting!
Quote from: Mark Smith on October 29, 2009, 10:10 AM
Ahhhh .. so it is simply a 64k RAM upgrade!
But then the article says that there are 2 new versions that let you use 256 out of 3000 colours ... wonder how that is done ? FLI for VDC ? OR actual real hardware to do it ?
I don't think it's just a 64k VDC upgrade... I think it also involves another chip. I remember reading that it was available for either the 128 or 128D, and that the non-D version included the RAM upgrade. Take a look at this picture:
(http://www.c128.net/infos/image/pic_gb_box.jpg)
And be sure to read this as well:
http://www.c128.net/pdf/CW_8901_GraphicBooster_en.pdf (http://www.c128.net/pdf/CW_8901_GraphicBooster_en.pdf)
In the past, I've seen several discussions on this 'mysterious' product, all of them inconclusive.
A careful reading of the linked documents leads me to believe:
The hardware component is simply a 64k upgrade. The additional wire may give it some special ability, but I have no idea what it might be.
The software appears to be a wedge into BASIC that is auto-booted from disk at system startup.
Well if that's the case, then we're in luck... because there are downloads available on the site. I'm not sure if it'll work on my NTSC 128D, but I'll give it a try as soon as I get my power switch working again...
QuoteA careful reading of the linked documents leads me to believe:
The hardware component is simply a 64k upgrade. The additional wire may give it some special ability, but I have no idea what it might be.
The software appears to be a wedge into BASIC that is auto-booted from disk at system startup
It looks like there may be a firmware change also. Below is a portion of the installation instructions. U34 in the DCR is BASIC ($4000-BFFF).
Commodore 128 DCR (with metal-housing)
Installation: Remove the 5 screws on the back and side, slide the housing to the back and lift to remove.
Remove the EPROM on U34 with a screwdriver, install the Eprom, delivered with GB128.
Check same orientation as removed Eprom.
Remount housing and close. Ready.
Dan…
Again looking at the pictures .. that wire seems to only go to pin 28 on U34 .. which is "Vcc" which is just power isn't it ?
Can you control that pin on the C128 ? Toggle it on and off ? Maybe it does do some sort of bankswitch on the VDC RAM board ?
Someone go buy one so we can solve this puzzle once and for all!!! :-)
Mark
QuoteSomeone go buy one so we can solve this puzzle once and for all!!! :-)
Where would you buy one?
Dan...
Quote from: megabit on October 30, 2009, 11:47 AMWhere would you buy one?
Hmm, I can send an e-mail to my friend, Dirk K., of http://www.Dienstagstreff.de (http://www.dienstagstreff.de) and see if he has more information on this device.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
It's a 64K upgrade. I downloaded the software from their site and tried it out on my 64K upgraded 128. Even though my 1084 can't really handle such high-res displays, it's still impressive what the VDC is capable of--VGA in a chip or something.
Quote from: Wagner on October 31, 2009, 09:10 AM
It's a 64K upgrade. I downloaded the software from their site and tried it out on my 64K upgraded 128. Even though my 1084 can't really handle such high-res displays, it's still impressive what the VDC is capable of--VGA in a chip or something.
Do you have an NTSC or PAL system?
Quote from: Wagner on October 31, 2009, 09:10 AM
It's a 64K upgrade. I downloaded the software from their site and tried it out on my 64K upgraded 128. Even though my 1084 can't really handle such high-res displays, it's still impressive what the VDC is capable of--VGA in a chip or something.
Does that mean you have the Graphics Booster board?
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
Quote from: RobertB on October 31, 2009, 02:10 PMDoes that mean you have the Graphics Booster board?
No, a 64K upgrade. I think the board is a way of upgrading a C128 to 64K video RAM without desoldering the existing 16K RAM. Pull the VDC, plug it into the board, and put both back into the 128. Done.
Quote from: Wagner on November 01, 2009, 09:49 AMNo, a 64K upgrade.
I'm confused. I always thought that the Graphics Booster was a hardware daughterboard and software package and that one couldn't run without the other. With 64K VDC in a C128 or a C128DCR, you are able to run the software and see the video results mentioned in its literature?
If that it is so, that is great news,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
Quote from: RobertB on November 01, 2009, 02:42 PM
I'm confused. I always thought that the Graphics Booster was a hardware daughterboard and software package and that one couldn't run without the other. With 64K VDC in a C128 or a C128DCR, you are able to run the software and see the video results mentioned in its literature?
Apparently the software needs 64K of VDC RAM to run in. Since no flat C128 has that much memory for VDC display, they created said daughterboard to boost the graphics to a full 64K. At least, that's what I'm gathering from what I've seen and from what they say on their site.....
QuoteThe Graphic Booster needs a VDC with 64 K RAM (already available in the C128 DCR) and has therefore been sold for use with "normal" C128's together with a VDC-64K-upgradeboard.
Yes, I've basically seen several of the pictures above. A couple pictures were not included on the disks, but there were others on the disks not shown above. I say basically, because I have to make my 1084 monitor go out of sync to scroll the picture down. And since the 1084 isn't interlace, it flickers badly.
Quote from: Wagner on November 02, 2009, 11:12 AMYes, I've basically seen several of the pictures above. A couple pictures were not included on the disks, but there were others on the disks not shown above.
Ah, you are able to display the pictures. Without the specialized GB board and its EPROM, are you able to create pics in its extended resolution/colors?
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
Quote from: I on October 30, 2009, 03:19 PM...I can send an e-mail to my friend, Dirk K. ... and see if he has more information on this device.
No word back yet. I might have to telephone him in Germany.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
It has been known for a long time that the C128 with 64K VDC RAM is capable of higher resolutions than 640X200. Check out this article from the Commodore Knowledge Base...
http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/display.cgi?255 (http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/display.cgi?255)
The person(s) who made the Graphics Booster aren't claiming resolutions any higher than what other people have known about and documented.
You should go to the c128.net website http://www.c128.net/download/gb128.htm (http://www.c128.net/download/gb128.htm), download the d81 software, and run it on your C128D. Seeing is believing.
Quote from: Wagner on November 02, 2009, 10:25 PM
It has been known for a long time that the C128 with 64K VDC RAM is capable of higher resolutions than 640X200.
Yes, I know. Basic 8 proves that fact.
QuoteThe person(s) who made the Graphics Booster aren't claiming resolutions any higher than what other people have known about and documented.
However, according to this thread, they are claiming more colors.
Quote...download the d81 software, and run it on your C128D. Seeing is believing.
Yup, I will do that. Getting back to a previous question which was left unanswered... Without the specialized GB board and its EPROM, are you able to create pics in its extended resolution/colors?
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga
Any results? I don't have time unfortunalty to transfer those disks to my c128 but I'll do it during weekend I hope.
Quote from: RobertB on November 03, 2009, 02:43 AM
However, according to this thread, they are claiming more colors.
I must have missed that. What are they claiming exactly? All I did was run the downloads on my computer. Since the programs appeared similar to what was in this forum thread (the pictures included on the disk images at least) I didn't analyze it any further. After having run the Graphics Booster software, I came to the conclusion that their daughterboard holds 64K or RAM, although it would be more informative for you to test their software yourself and form your own opinion, rather than rely on anything I say.
Getting back to your question,
are you able to create pics in its extended resolution/colors? what resolutions and colors am I supposedly trying to duplicate? Claiming more colors is one thing, having more colors is something else. Can you show me something in Graphics Booster that can't be displayed with 64K VDC RAM?
Quote from: Wagner on November 03, 2009, 10:14 AM
I must have missed that. What are they claiming exactly?
Earlier in this thread, Hydrophilic wrote:
QuoteBut according to the manual, "The colorblocks 8x6 pixel can be set independent from each other. 256 foreground and 256 backgroundcolors. If this matrix is filled with PATTERN1,0,0,0 you can display 65000 colors in this matrix."
If you can get 256 colors without dithering (65000+ with dithering), then it must use some special hardware... Unless they use double dithering: interlace for one layer, then patterns for a second layer...
You wrote:
QuoteClaiming more colors is one thing, having more colors is something else.
See the above from Hydrophilic.
QuoteCan you show me something in Graphics Booster that can't be displayed with 64K VDC RAM?
That is one of the points of this thread... to determine the capabilities of Graphics Booster, i.e., to know what Graphics Booster is all about, since it seems that none of us have the specialized board that came with it.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
QuoteThe colorblocks 8x6 pixel can be set independent from each other. 256 foreground and 256 background colors. If this matrix is filled with PATTERN1,0,0,0 you can display 65000 colors in this matrix.
Sounds like photo-realistic quality to me. I have seen no such thing, either here or on my 128.
The "risen from oblivion" demo is able to get visuals that are easily as colorful as those produced by this software. I have no idea why the VDC upgrade board it comes with uses one of the ROM sockets, though. It's probably just a quirk in the design.
Quote from: I on October 30, 2009, 03:19 PM...I can send an e-mail to my friend, Dirk K....
No word back from Dirk in Germany. I can only assume that he has no information on it, either. :(
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
Quote from: RobertB on November 06, 2009, 03:06 PMNo word back from Dirk in Germany.
Dirk responded today, "i have information about the Graphics booster but i have to find it." O.K., that means he has it in his small apartment or in the storage deep in the Dienstagstreff bunker. :)
Hopeful,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
Ha, ha, nice discussion.
First of all: There is no need for any other hardware on a C128DCR!
The GB hardware is only a 64KB extension for the VDC (only needed for the flat C128).
What you really need is the (SCPU patched) software available on my homepage ;)
And I strongly recommend a 1901 Monitor a 1084 is a "weak replacement".
There IS a EPROM available! (I don't have it) This EPROM supports higher resolution for standard functions and features a BASIC editor with 50 lines etc. You don't need it for HiRes-Graphics.
You have 16 colors! 16 foreground and 16 background colours! There is no magic!
You can "mix" colors if you use 2 pixel lines => 16*16 = 256. That's it.
[There are some demo programms on my homepage to show this effect.]
To get 256 of 3000 colours the authors used their fantasy: There is a "shade" command / function. This function shifts the whole colour-space by adjusting (mis-adjusting) the position of the first visible dot (I forgot the related VDC register number). This does not work on each monitor and is monitor specific. Therefore it is worthless.
Regards WTE
Here's a thought that's...sort of tangentially related: EGA monitors are basically compatible with CGA (i.e. RGBI) video signals. If one made a connector that intercepted the R, G, B, and I signals but passed the sync information through intact, the RGBI color value could be used as an index into a palette of 6-bit EGA color values (which I assume you'd set up for CPU access somewhere in the I/O block through the expansion port,) which could be passed through to an EGA monitor, giving the VDC a 16-color palette out of a total of 64 colors.
Not that it would be revolutionary or widely useful, but it might be a fun hardware project if someone has an EGA monitor sitting around...
Quote from: commodorejohn on December 26, 2009, 01:11 PM
Not that it would be revolutionary or widely useful, but it might be a fun hardware project if someone has an EGA monitor sitting around...
It would, I have an IBM ECD monitor that I use on an XT - nice display.
Quote from: wte on December 26, 2009, 10:06 AM
There IS a EPROM available! (I don't have it) This EPROM supports higher resolution for standard functions and features a BASIC editor with 50 lines etc.
Can you tell us where the EPROM is found available?
Merry Christmas!
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org
Quote from: commodorejohn on December 26, 2009, 01:11 PM...it might be a fun hardware project if someone has an EGA monitor sitting around...
I have an EGA monitor for my C128DCR.
Merry Christmas!
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org
Quote from: RobertB on December 26, 2009, 05:35 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn on December 26, 2009, 01:11 PM...it might be a fun hardware project if someone has an EGA monitor sitting around...
I have an EGA monitor for my C128DCR.
And it works without any modifications ?
Quote from: Blacklord on December 26, 2009, 05:59 PMAnd it works without any modifications ?
Yes, it works.
Merry Christmas!
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org
Excellent - I'll try it out.
I've played around a tiny bit with the interlace mode of the VDC, but the flicker is unbearable. What's worse is RGB -> SVGA adapter I am using in my tower can't handle interlace at all, no output at all to the SVGA monitor. Now that the Indivision is available for most Amiga models, I would think the older external units would be more economical second hand.
How possible would it to be to convert something like a Toastscan for 128 80 column use? Anyone tried this?
Quote from: RobertB on December 26, 2009, 05:33 PM
Quote from: wte on December 26, 2009, 10:06 AM
There IS a EPROM available! (I don't have it) This EPROM supports higher resolution for standard functions and features a BASIC editor with 50 lines etc.
Can you tell us where the EPROM is found available?
I've never seen one in real live. And I could never get a rom dump :(
Regards WTE
Quote from: Blacklord on December 27, 2009, 07:47 AMExcellent - I'll try it out.
Cool! Make sure to post some pictures if you can!
Quote from: commodorejohn on December 31, 2009, 01:45 AM
Quote from: Blacklord on December 27, 2009, 07:47 AMExcellent - I'll try it out.
Cool! Make sure to post some pictures if you can!
Will do - about to go away for five days, so will do it once I get back.
Initially determined that it does work, but haven't tested intensities yet.
EGA pinout:
Pin Name Function
1 GND Ground
2 SR Secondary Red (Intensity)
3 PR Primary Red
4 PG Primary Green
5 PB Primary Blue
6 SG Secondary Green (Intensity)
7 SB Secondary Blue (Intensity)
8 H Horizontal Sync
9 V Vertical Sync
This is different to the C128's output:
1 Ground
2 Ground
3 Red
4 Green
5 Blue
6 Intensity
7 Monochrome
8 HSync
9 Vsync
My initial suspicion is that the intensities won't all be there. I'm also a little concerned about pin 2 being a ground.
Lance
Quote from: redrumloa on December 30, 2009, 04:28 AMHow possible would it to be to convert something like a Toastscan for 128 80 column use?
I was speaking to the Amiga hardware tech of TOGA today. He said that converting a Toastscan would not be possible (and Toastscan is hard to find and expensive). However, he liked the older XRGB-2 Plus and the newer XRGB-3 (but also expensive). Now whether the XRGBs work for the C128's 80-column mode is something that needs to be studied.
Happy New Year!
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug (http://videocam.net.au/fcug)
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/ (http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/)
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org (http://www.sccaners.org)
Quote from: commodorejohn on December 31, 2009, 01:45 AM
Quote from: Blacklord on December 27, 2009, 07:47 AMExcellent - I'll try it out.
Cool! Make sure to post some pictures if you can!
Well, the pics ain't too good, so I won't publish :) However, all colours display correctly on an EGA monitor!
Quote from: Blacklord on January 01, 2010, 06:28 PMHowever, all colours display correctly on an EGA monitor!
:) Now if I can find these programs mentioned at
http://www.go64.de/english/online_e/06_00_2e.htm
I could then try them out with the EGA monitor and my C128DCR.
Happy New Year!
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network
http://www.sccaners.org
Quote
Now if I can find these programs mentioned at
http://www.go64.de/english/online_e/06_00_2e.htm
I could then try them out with the EGA monitor and my C128DCR.
That is quite interesting, gives me something to think about. Thanks Robert.
Quote from: Blacklord on January 01, 2010, 06:28 PMWell, the pics ain't too good, so I won't publish :) However, all colours display correctly on an EGA monitor!
Ah, snazzy! Given that it works without adjustment, it probably shouldn't be hard to build the kind of palette interface I was theorizing about...